With ‘BOX OF TRICKS’ out now, the London pair talk first-take jams, D’Angelo’s legacy, making music as working-class artists, and why everything is political.

When we speak, it is a year to the day since D’Angelo died.  raises it himself, partway through explaining how ‘LEAVE’, the lead single from his collaborative EP with , came to sound like classic R&B. ‘Voodoo’ is one of his favourite records. He was in tears when the news broke.

Neither of them set out to make an R&B song. Neither set out to make an EP at all. ‘LEAVE’ is more or less the first jam they fell into after a day of ideas that weren’t working, and ‘BOX OF TRICKS’ is simply the first three songs the pair made together, which only in hindsight revealed themselves as a set.

It joins two singular London practices: BODUR, whose debut album ‘MAQAM’ drew on the Arabic maqam system, and Sey, the multi-instrumentalist known to many through his long-running work with Tirzah and Mica Levi. From that first-take jam, the EP moves through ‘AGAIN’, a ballad about the small gestures that wound, to the title track, a bleak nursery rhyme for a world that deals some people a far harder hand than others.

Speaking over video two days before release, they are generous with each other and candid about the hard parts: self-funding, working-class graft, and the strangeness of promoting anything right now.

Let’s go back to the start. What did you know about each other before you met?

 I first heard Coby through his work with Tirzah on ‘Devotion’, which I was a huge fan of. Then I watched the NTS session they did around that release and realised he was playing on a lot of the tunes too. I thought, this guy is so cool, musically and as a person. I was admiring from a distance, and I didn’t feel like I had the chops to introduce myself. Then my A&R at the time, Lou, said she thought we’d really get along. She’s only done that with very few people, and she was always right. We met and got on really well, which made me less scared about making music together. If we’d met for the first time in the studio, I’d probably have felt a bit of imposter syndrome.

 I wish I’d known her work before, to be honest. I get a ton of emails, and one came through from her A&R. I listened to a few EPs, then saw ‘MAQAM’ had come out, and I was pretty amazed. I thought, we’ve got to make this happen.

Was ‘LEAVE’ the first thing you made?

 The first song we ever made together was ‘AGAIN’, at Coby’s studio in Hither Green. It was just the two of us, which was nice, because we got to connect musically first. The three songs on this EP are the first three we made together, which is kind of crazy. Later we fleshed them out with Gabriel Gifford and Harvey Causon, who share a studio in Bethnal Green. It all felt self-contained: not too many cooks, and no pressure to have something done by a particular time. Even when I was with a label, I never recorded in studios that were being paid for, because it put an unnecessary stress on me. I’d rather work in friends’ places.

 I’m really appreciative of having that option, working from friends’ studios as well as having one of my own. It’s not easy. Sharing it with five other people helps keep the rent low.

BODUR, this is your first collaborative project. What changed, working this way?

 It’s been really interesting not being so absorbed in my own style, being able to put Coby’s shoes on for a bit and walk around in them. In the past I’ve had a very preconceived idea of what I wanted to make, and I think that’s what led to this project, by accident. I just wanted to remember what it felt like to make music without thinking too much about it. We didn’t plan an EP. We were just making stuff together, and only in hindsight did I think, those three work quite nicely together, maybe we should put this out. I definitely felt less critical of the music, because it didn’t feel like all me.

 With my solo music I tend to be quite precious. I’ll chisel away at a song, or work on multiple versions until I get there. Over ten years ago I’d start loads of ideas and never come back to them, so the pendulum swung the other way: tunnel vision on one song until it’s done, then the next. Working with [BODUR], and with other collaborators, has been of massive help in knowing when to change gears. This is probably one of the quickest times I’ve gone from making music to having it out.

‘LEAVE’ draws on classic R&B, which isn’t where either of you usually sit. Why go there?

 It wasn’t intentional. We’d been working on something else all day that wasn’t clicking, so we scrapped it and just started jamming. Coby was on the drums, Gabriel picked up the bass guitar and I started singing. The first thing we did is basically what the song is. Coby played more bass on it later, but ‘LEAVE’ is more or less that first jam, because it captured something natural that fell out of us. I can overthink what I’m doing, or overcomplicate things, so it was nice to let the subconscious take over. It was like the music I was making when I first started, ten years ago.

 Some of the best songs come from that. Today, as it happens, is a year since D’Angelo passed away. ‘Voodoo’ is one of my favourites, a pivotal record for me, along with everyone who contributed to it: Questlove, Pino Palladino, Angie Stone, Roy Hargrove. I was in tears when the news came out. That music is in me, as much as loads of other artists regardless of genre, and however it comes out, I see it as my way of paying respects and paying homage. Hopefully not a replication. I learned so much from those artists, not just about making music but about life. That’s how deep it goes for me, and I’m pretty sure that’s how we connected, even without talking about it.

 Whether I try or not, R&B vocals are always what comes out. I have to actively try not to. It’s what I grew up listening to.

Were there particular voices in your head?

 Not consciously, but I wanted it to sound effortless, and D’Angelo is amazing at that. More recently, so is Dawuna. With vibrato, I think of Kelela and Fatima. When Coby put the backing vocals on ‘LEAVE’, they really reminded me of Seal’s on ‘Kiss From A Rose’. Only after I said it did I realise he performs that song regularly and has an official cover of it.

 It’s one of my favourite songs. The way he stacks his vocals is a masterclass. And outside what a lot of people call R&B, I have to mention Liz Fraser from Cocteau Twins, and Liz Harris, aka Grouper.

Coby, when a song begins with someone else’s idea, how do you find where your voice sits?

 By listening, and letting intuition guide me. I see music as another way of communicating, outside of talking. It’s knowing when to step into a pocket and when to hold back. The notes that are played and the words that are vocalised are just as important as when not to play, when not to sing, when not to rap or perform poetry. Listening is a big part of it.

[Image: ‘2’ from the BODUR x Clash folder, credit Jameela Elfaki]

BODUR, you directed and edited the ‘LEAVE’ visualiser yourself. Why keep it all in your own hands?

 Financially, I have to do everything myself, because I’m self-funding everything. It’s also probably me being a control freak, with a lot of ideas about how every single thing should be. I always say being working class makes you incredibly creative and resourceful, because you have to learn how to do everything from a very young age. With ‘LEAVE’, literally the day we made it, I saw the visual. It was a very clear image in my head. I told Coby, trust me on this one: there’s going to be a chair, you’re going to be on the drums, and there’s going to be a man kneeling on the floor. It sounds weird, but it’s going to be cool. If someone said, what if you don’t wear stripper heels, or what if you don’t wear white, I’d probably have a mild panic attack. It has to be exactly how I see it.

‘AGAIN’ is the song people know least about. How would you describe it?

 Lyrically, it’s about repeatedly being the one to hold someone’s hand, and them always letting go and not reaching for yours again. It’s a very simple action, but for someone as sensitive as me it held a lot of weight, and a whole song came out of it. It’s about how people can hurt you without even realising, if you feel things very deeply. And the conversations that come from that when you’re in a relationship in your mid-twenties, like maybe starting a family, and the feelings that come up while you’re still in your twenties. There were so many question marks at the time of writing. Musically, it goes somewhere I don’t feel I’ve been before. In my head it’s a ballad, probably the first I’ve ever written, and my vocal delivery was definitely inspired by Coby’s world.

 I really connected with the lyrics, in a big way. I didn’t know those keyboard melodies would bring that out, but I should have known, given my track record. I see that session as the catalyst for the next two songs.

Harvey Causon came in on ‘AGAIN’. How did that happen, and what did he bring?

 I’d asked Gabriel to work on it because he’d done the other two, and he said he wasn’t sure what direction to take it in. I appreciated him being honest about not inserting himself. He said Harvey has good piano chops and this felt like his vibe. I’d thought Harvey would be good for it anyway, but asking the person who shares Gabriel’s studio felt a bit like having an affair. So once I had Gabriel’s blessing to cheat on him with his studio partner, I reached out, and Harvey loved the song. He played additional keys, helped with the arrangement and even sang some backing vocals. When we were tracking vocals, I sang one line and he stopped and asked, have you warmed up today? I said no. He said, shall we warm up? And I was like, okay, read me for filth, but sure. He was right. I sang it better after that.

Because so few people were involved, there was space for me to contribute a lot musically, which is why I feel so satisfied with it. The drums on ‘AGAIN’ are my drummer, Jono, playing a part I’d programmed, and on ‘BOX OF TRICKS’ it’s me on the kit. Coby plays multiple instruments on it too.

 Harvey brought another direction with the chords, and helped bring out a bigger vocal performance. I play a bunch of instruments, but I can tell he spends many more hours on keys, whereas I spend most of mine on bass, drums and electronics. We’d talked about getting in the studio together since we met in Bristol a few years ago, so I’m thankful that working with [BODUR] helped Harvey and me connect.

‘BOX OF TRICKS’ came to you as a stream of consciousness, BODUR. Where was your head?

 I was thinking about the state of the world. It was very bleak: division in the news cycle, in this country and overseas, all the wars breaking out around the world. I was thinking about how some people are just dealt a difficult hand. We’re not all dealt the same cards or starting from the same place. Whether you’re born into a war-torn country or born working class in Britain, life can feel like the opening of a relentless box of tricks, one after another, with no escaping the hardship. It was inspired by the magpie nursery rhyme. Nursery rhymes feel quite hopeful, and this is kind of hopeful, but also quite bleak. Quite hopeless, actually.

The day after I filmed the video for it, I was basically in tears all day. It felt like a weird purge, and it’s something I’m still in. Navigating the industry without a label as a working-class musician is so difficult, and I’ve never been more aware of that than this year. I wish I’d written this song in hindsight, from a better place. Writing it while I’m still in the midst of it, then having to talk about it and make visuals that feel a little too close to home, has been quite hard. But I don’t really know how else to make music other than being brutally honest.

Coby, what did you hear when she brought it in?

 I think I had the first two lines before the session, and as soon as Coby played the piano, the rest came out very quickly.

 It felt like we were conversing. And I related to the lyrics as someone who’s working class. On the first tour for ‘Devotion’, I was working full-time as a web developer and using holiday days to go on tour. Eventually I’d used them all up, and the tour was still going. So I thought, okay, I’m going to take this leap of faith. Thankfully I’ve managed to do music since, but it took a long time. Before that it was freelance work here and there. I didn’t know how it would be possible to work in music without something to keep the lights on.

Promotion seems to sit uneasily with both of you right now.

 It seems really strange to promote anything with what’s going on right now. I’m surprised I haven’t deactivated my Instagram in maybe four years. I used to do it quite regularly, disappear for a good two months and come back, because sometimes it’s just a lot.

 Recently I’ve found it really frustrating that the expectation is to share the middle of the song, the best bit, on social media before people have heard it from the beginning. I’ve spent a year crafting the rhythm of this, slowly building the tension so that when the second chorus arrives there’s a massive payoff. Now I just have to give that away. It’s the same with visuals: you edit them to build slowly towards a climax, then you have to share the climax. Ninety percent of my followers are probably only going to hear those 30 seconds. It makes all your work feel useless in a way. I wish people could just hear things from start to finish.

Why name the EP after ‘BOX OF TRICKS’?

 Thematically, it felt the most important of the three. It’s probably the most political, the one with the most social commentary, and it informs everything else. Take ‘AGAIN’ and the conversations around having children. Why is that so difficult? Because everyone’s fucking broke and living in house shares. All the themes on the other songs, even what seems like a normal love song, are seen through the lens of the social and political climate we’re in in this country right now.

 For me, everything is political. We can’t escape it, and I don’t feel the need to escape it either, because it’s reality. I have no desire not to express what’s really happening, if not through my lens then through as many different lenses as possible.

What do you hope people take from hearing all three in one sitting?

 Not a message, really. I tend to write about my own experience, so it’s kind of a venting session for me. But it’s quite an expansive project, it doesn’t sit comfortably in one genre, and I hope people feel inspired to go away and create whatever they desire without feeling boxed in by anything.

 As long as anyone feels like they’ve gotten something, whether it’s what I get from listening back or something completely different. Everyone comes to it with their own context and will have their own interpretation, and I’d never aim to be dictatorial. As long as they feel something. That’s what connects all of us as humans.

Anything you want to say to each other, on the record?

 Thank you, Coby, for collaborating with a little fan like me, for trusting me and being so open. You have an open-door approach to collaboration, helping more underground artists and working with whoever you like the music of, even if you don’t know them. For an artist at your level, as respected as you are, that’s really lovely. You don’t see it very often.

 I don’t have the words for this. You’re making a Black man blush right now. Jokes aside, I really appreciate it. I’m down for another collaboration in future.

BODUR & Coby Sey’s EP ‘BOX OF TRICKS’ is out now.